Jan Roos On Growth Through Specialization

In this episode, we talk with Jan Roos, who owns a lead generation company for attorneys. In the episode we talk about the power of specialization and why focusing on narrowing down EXACTLY what you help clients/customers with is so powerful in business. Enjoy!

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Jeremy Reeves: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the another episode of the sales funnel mastery podcast. This is your host, Jeremy Reeves and on the line today, I have Jan Roos I want to make sure I got that right.

So Jan Roos, basically, what he does, I think this is going to be a cool interview because he specializes essentially lead generation for small and medium law firms and — now I know you know, anybody who is not you know, does not own a law firm, I do not want you to delete this because what I am going to do is — he is going to kind of walk us through exactly how he gets guaranteed results for his clients and I am going to try to make it applicable to anybody listening to this whether you are a law firm or whether you own some kind of brick-and-mortar business or you are online.

We are going to try and kind of take his general principles of what he does and how he is able to get such good results for his clients and you know, kind of show you how to do the same thing.

So it is going to be cool interview.

So yeah, how are you buddy?

Jan Roos: Good Jeremy. How are you doing?

Jeremy Reeves: I am good. I am good. I am actually kind of excited because we — I have been trying to — it is now July 8 as of when we are recording this and I still have not been swimming the entire year which is awful.

We do not have a pool, the kind of where the yard is a little bit funky and so we cannot put a pool in, but my in laws, you know, my father and mother in law, they just put in a brand new in ground pool and it is like a (inaudible 1:34.5).

Jan Roos: So nice. I love those.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I know. And we are teaching our kids to swim this year and so that is actually, once we get off the call I have been trying to cram an entire days worth of work into like 4 hours.

So I did not quite make that happen. I am actually going to get up tomorrow morning and finish it, but I am you know, we are doing that. We are getting pizza and you know, all that kind of stuff and their cousin, my boys are 3 and 4. Actually, the 4-year-old is going to be 5 in actually, a week today.

But their little cousin, he is also 3. He is coming in through the day, so it is going to be kind of a nice little family day. So I am so excited.

Jan Roos: That is awesome. I will try to speak it like an auctioneer pace so we can just get that (inaudible 2:19.0).

Jeremy Reeves: Buy yeah, anyway, so I kind of went on a little rampant. Tell everybody you know, about what you do and who you helped and that kind of thing and then we will get into the you know, kind of the meat and potatoes of exactly how you are getting people see good results.

Jan Roos: Alright, great. So yeah, (inaudible 2:35.2) the company that I run, Expert Engines is like you said, a lead generation service. We focus on law firms and really our claim to fame is being able to deliver results in 72 hours or less.

We basically focused on one very specific kind of funnel which I am sure going to go into later, but basically how we arrived there was kind of more of a process. Do you want me to go in the story now?

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, go ahead.

Jan Roos: Alright, cool.

So yeah, I started out personally doing a little bit of agency work. Did a little bit of staff in house and then finally ended up winning a business plan competition and a grant to go with it which allowed me to start my first business Vitality Sciences and it was actually kind of a really, really scary situation because I had partner, he was on the supply side, it was health and nutritional supplements company, so I was basically you know, he brought all the product to the table, to the warehouse, and there was a 100% (inaudible 3:27.0) to move it out of there.

So you know, this encompass you know, the full spectrum sales marketing. I was doing cold calls, cold outreach, every single kind of inbound flavor that you could think off, content marketing, SEO, blah, blah, blah.

So I really sort of had to leverage some of the skills that I developed doing the staff at the agencies, the in house staff to really do it for myself.

So over time you know, as you kind of start of always in a position as an entrepreneur where you have more time than money and then once you finally ended up getting the money is when we were able to invest in the paid traffic and then you know, that was just like addicted to me because it is like, you could have the results immediately, it is like you know, you do not have to worry about your content or social medial ramping up. Just go the traffic store and you buy it and then if you can close the loop with you know, good conversion rate principles, copywriting stuff like that, then you know, you are putting in a dollar and you are taking out 2 or 3.

So after that, a transition out in that business and that is when I really started Expert Engines because it was kind of funny, the whole consulting thing sort of found me. I sort of had — somebody approached me for some service contracts and the thing is I was used to being in an inventory business at that time.

So I was like, oh okay, well you know, I have this (inaudible 4:36.4) and it is like, I do not have to save this for the next slot of inventory you know, you can just you know, hire people with this, I can do anything with this.

So that was also super exciting. And then over time, yeah, we finally (inaudible 4:47.5) it was kind of more of a broader you know, doing the whole general thing that I was doing but then we kind of identified it was way easier. We were getting fantastic results of the paid traffic. That was kind of the strength of mine personally, but it also jelled really well with what the client’s like and it was — and it pretty (inaudible 5:05.5) contrast us to most of the staff that a lot of agencies especially here in New York where I live, we are doing so.

That is kind of how we get started and then you know, you got a client, you got another client, and you start getting the results, portfolio and that takes us to where we are today.

Jeremy Reeves: Nice. That is awesome. And you know, and as I was kind of telling you before we started the call, the 2 kind of main things that I really want to pull out of your story and what you are doing is number 1 you know, I am going to have you walk us through exactly what you are doing for your clients so I can then make it applicable for anybody listening you know, kind of pull off the big insights from that and then the other part of it is I want to talk about the kind of the power of specializing you know, because you know, you chose the route of doing it for one — you know, basically one main thing for 1 specific market and I want to kind of talk about that and why it is so important to you know, to do that versus just like, hey, you know, we are lead generation company for you know, businesses. You do it just for law firm. So I want to talk about that too.

But the first thing is let us kind of dig in to your — let us dig in to your funnel and walk us through you know, exactly what you do for clients and even if you want to get in to how you exactly attract leads you know, into your business that might even help too, but then more importantly you know, what you are doing for your clients. I am assuming it is probably something either using Adwords or Facebook or something like that to get them you know, the leads, but you know, walk us through everything from you know, the ad like what the ad says and then landing page, what is the landing page say you know, basically essentially what is the funnel look like and what are some of the you know, kind of you know, secret ingredients I guess that you are using to get these lawyers such good results.

Jan Roos: Got you. So actually the funnel itself is you know, it is not easy, but it is simple.

So we are starting out you know, 80% of our traffic probably comes from Adwords and that is basically — the reason that we do that is especially in the legal niche, you have people that — you are already a known quantity, if some of these getting to the point where they are typing in bankruptcy lawyer in New York city, they have already made a decision to hire somebody.

So they are very late in the customer awareness you know as per (inaudible 7:26.4) Eugene Schwartz sort of thing.

So then basically we take into landing page you know, we do all our landing pages and unbounce for writing all of our copy in house. I actually still do a lot of the copy myself and we have just got a real knack at taking the benefits of an individual law practice you know, to a copywriter, it is pretty block and tackle stuff, but it is actually really surprising how few law firms are doing this correctly.

Jeremy Reeves: Oh yeah, it is not surprising to me.

Jan Roos: Oh yes, seriously. And then the whole process is kind of wrapped around you know, we have a lot of analytics in place.

Jan Roos: For the majority of businesses that we work with it is call based. So we have to have systems in place for tracking that and you know, it is a little bit complicated mambo jambo, but at the end of the day, you basically have the ability to track the conversion that pushes back towards Google Analytics through Google Adwords. So you really get the full picture of what to optimize for.

Again, this is the kind of stuff that is pretty much table stakes for your average you know, sophisticated internet marketer or a startup or something like that, but again, when we are dealing with local businesses like this, a lot of times they do not have it setup.

The thing that separates us — so the thing is, I really do not like to call what we do Adwords because a lot of the people that do Adwords whether it is an agency or freelanced, they are optimizing around the wrong metrics.

So until you have this kind of full stack conversion picture, people will do ridiculous things like you know, you can just basically optimize stuff around click through rates which you know, is really good sometimes, but generally, there could be a correlation where the people are clicking more are turning into more clients, but a lot of the times it is not the case and if that is not the case then you know, you are basically buying a bunch clicks for people who are not buying.

To take that a step further, we kind of do a manual outreach with our clients because we know the different kinds of cases that are coming in, so you know, you could have a completely different kind of person that is typing for example, work injury lawyer versus somebody who is a construction accident lawyer. Even though they seemed very similar, a lot of the times it represents a completely different kind of person.

So in the end, basically this whole process you know, you have these different levers of the ads various copy, stuff in the landing pages, another thing we do kind of you know, it is sort of a little catch bucket if something does not get through is we do remarketing on Facebook and Google display network, but this you know, optimizing across the whole funnel instead of just optimizing for a landing page or optimizing for the ads is kind of how we end up driving this cost really down and make sure our clients are getting the right stuff to because at the end of the day — I came from a small business world, I have a lot of you know, empathy for these clients, for the most part when we are talking about you know, small or medium law firm this ad budget is you know that is money that they could be putting their next vacation or their retirement account or you know kid’s college funds.

So we want to make sure that we are getting them you know, cash-back in their checking account as soon as possible.

Jeremy Reeves: Nice. Sounds good. One thing you hit on that I want to kind of dive into a little bit is you know, the awareness of the market and you are going after — it is essentially looking at you know, a lot of people when they say cold and warm traffic and that kind of thing they are talking about you know, like a house list is warm and you know, doing things like Adwords and Facebook is “hold,” but there is kind of a second level to that that most people do not think about it and you hit on it before when you were saying, people are different stages of the buying cycle you know.

So the people that you are smartly going after are at the very end stage. They know, they are basically almost ready to buy you know what I mean.

They are kind of just making their choice as to who to go with rather than you know, they are not looking up why they should hire a lawyer or you know, things like that, it is like okay, I know I need one, now who do I go with and the sale is so much easier you know, going to people where they are like, alright, you know, I need a lawyer like now, you know.

A lawyer is one of those things it is kind of like a plumber you know, you do not really call a plumber and be like, oh, I am going to need you in a month you know, like when you are calling a plumber, it is like, look dude, I need you like in the next 3 seconds you know, because there is water shooting all over my bathroom you know, and that is you know, that is why they make so much.

You know, I think that is a big, I think that is a big kind of insight because a lot of people are trying to educate their audiences too much and you should have different funnels for that like, I do not know if you have separate funnels for that, but you know, there is kind of like if you think about it like a spider web or like a you know, like a jawbreaker something you know, the core of it is the people, they are the people that are just ready to buy. They just have to make the decision of who they are going to do business with and that is who you are going after.

That is like the easiest to get and then after you really nail that down, then you expand out to people who are you know, maybe they need you in the future or you have to educate them of why they need you and things like that.

But a lot of people start you know, you are starting in the core, the easiest you know, cherry pick if you will and kind of moving out, whereas a lot of people making mistake of, alright well let us just get everybody and we are just kind of educate them for months you know, on why they should you know, why they need us and such a (inaudible 5:49.0) you know.

What are your thoughts on? Is that something that you kind of just did or did you — was that more of like a strategy like or you actually knew you were doing that.

Jan Roos: That was extremely deliberate. So to go a little bit back into the story about what I was doing before I started this company.

We ended up pursuing 2 completely different markets with 2 completely different products (inaudible 6:10.2) company I was running.

So one was targeted more towards survival backpacking and the other one was target towards cross-fit and triathlon.

So when we were taking different you know, throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

So they were completely different levels of awareness for the market.

So our survival product was completely new, which means that we, it was on us if we are ever going to sell this thing to educate people why this is something that is important, why it is something they should buy.

On the other hand, when we were talking about the fitness market you know, amino acid products which we sold were more or less unknown quantity, so that ended up being a completely different. So we could not really educate that much because you know, it was kind of like you know, one of those things okay, like we have these benefits, but is it really that different.

So that is a thing like we saw stuff you know, we had a way easier time securing PR, getting content out there, getting people to share stuff for the survival product, that was almost impossible for the fitness one just because there are so many ones like that, but you know, the fitness one worked well.

When we were able to capture people who were looking for a deal right then and there, but yeah. I mean basically, that was you know and I read the book, Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz, a few years after that and it was like a complete revelation because I kind of then developing this theory about hey you know, like the whole education process is something that you have to match the product in the market, the customers that you are going after.

And then you know, he had this, Eugene Schwartz has this beautiful model for all that and it is just, it was really just one of those Aha moments where everything fit into place.

But yeah, the way that I kind of explained it to my clients is — I used a football analogy. So the clients that worked best with Adwords in my opinion, like you know, you are basically at you know, 3rd and goal with you know, 5 yards to go.

But that is not every client you know, like sometimes in my business personally is something it has to start a lot farther out you know, I cannot just say you know, lead generation because first of all that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I cannot say Adwords. So a lot of the times it is actually something that starts a lot farther out.

And then basically you know, there are a lot of different — so there are some types of lawyers that we do not work with, so if you take you know, personal injury lawyer, it is the ultimate I mean literal, bleeding or neck problem you know, you get hit by a car, you get whatever, slip and fall and then you need a lawyer like today because you are in the hospital.

You take something like a business lawyer, a lot of the times this is something that people are considering deliberately over a long period of time. For that kind of stuff, I would have more of an education so and for that I actually would not recommend Adwords you know.

The traffic is just too expensive to do anything that is not going to turn into a lead right then and there you know.

For that kind of stuff, I would say, Hey look, go to SEO route, you know, hit some content marketing you know, maybe actually do social media, it is worth building a brand out there so you can be (inaudible 9:10.4) and when it comes time for that person to actually make a decision, you have already been on their mind for a long time.

But again, it is like you know, it is so misguided like you see the classic attorney advertising, is the person injury guy buying you know the billboards and the radio jingle and stuff like literally you know, that is just all noise to people. No one cares about personal injury until they get injured.

So yeah, that is the thing. It is highly dependent on the kind of business that you are in. That is why we select this sort of businesses that work with it.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, I love that. You know, anybody listening, think about your audience, because every business you have you know, I mean it is a lot more clear cut like a personal injury you know, that is a lot more clear cut, but in most business you have both sides. You have people that are ready to buy it right now and then you also are going to have people that need to be educated first and they should have different funnels you know.

That is when you start getting into segmentation and things like that. You kind of have to — and you can do this through surveys. You can do it through keywords or typing. You can do through a whole bunch of different means or even the you know, you can come out with like an opt in you know, whether it is a PDF or video whatever and depending on the topic of that opt in, you are going to attract different people.

So you know, one of them might be, I do not know, I am trying to come up with something off top of my head in like health, it is like you know, something very you know, lower level like you know, 7 Food You Should Never Eat or something like that, maybe that is like people that need to be educated you know, the earlier on in the funnel versus something like I do not know, a personal trainer or something and it is like you know, you can schedule consultation now.

Those people are kind of — they have already been educated they know they need a personal trainer and they are kind of ready to go now and then you just have to show them why you are the best choice you know.

You do not have to tell them about why they need a personal trainer because they already know that. You are on to the next level where it is like, okay, now that you know that you need to lose weight. You know that you need a personal trainer, now you have to figure out you know, who, and I am that person you know. So your funnel is based around that versus you know, the first two things that I mentioned.

So that is a huge, huge insight and it is something that very few people really think about deeply, you know what I mean when they are planning these things out.

Jan Roos: Let me just point out one more thing too is that the other thing is that you know having a message mismatch is one of the worst things you can do for your marketing. I mean going back to the football analogy. Like if you got 1 yard to go you know, you can hit a full back dive and you are going to get that yard you know, that is all you are going to get.

If you do a full back dive off the punt return, you are just wasting a play you know.

So that is the thing too because it is like you know, what we do really well is — am I the best copywriter in the world not by a damn site. Are we extremely good at differentiating other local competitors? Yeah. We are extremely good at that.

So that is the kind of where we find our sweet spot.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, nice, I love it. So you know, the funnels that you are building for people, what is that actually look like you know, so like when you are you know, like (inaudible 12:22.4) you just walk us through the funnel. Is there you know, are you getting them on a list or you kind of just calling them you know. What is it actually look like from, okay you know, we are in front of this person now and then getting them to actually sign up with the client.

Jan Roos: Got you. So basically when we are going for an ads, we have some stuff that — like I said, you know, basic copywriting stuff that stands out in the market just because a lot of people are not sophisticated.

So you know, if we have somebody you know, let us say they have more experience, let us say they have — I will give you an example.

Construction action lawyer, he holds the largest settlement in the history of Kings County, which is in Brooklyn. So you know, $23M settlements. You are an X million dollar case, right.

So that is the ad they click to the landing page and basically there are 2 ways that they can get in touch with the client which are both completely immediate.

So it is either a form with the explicit intent to get contacted by the attorney. So they will have name, email, you know, described how we can help you in your situation and there is also the number which is dynamically inserted to a number of different traffic numbers which allows us to track it back through the ad and the keyword that was type.

So basically, you know, that is the thing you know, we are hard core on the whole attention ratio thing. So you know, there is only 2 things you can do when you reach the page. It is either you know, fill out the form or call the number. That is basically the whole deal as far as that. We do not really do too much you know, lead nurturing. We do not have any sequences set up. The next thing is they are going to get a call from attorney.

Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you, got you. And then they kind of take it over from there.

Jan Roos: Yeah.

Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. Okay, so let us kind of move on to you know essentially why you know, you specialize and kind of you know, the power of specializing in doing what you do because you know, as everybody can tell like there is really not that much going on with the actual funnel you know. It is a very, very, very simple funnel, but that is why it is so powerful I think, you know what I mean.

A lot of people when they think of funnels it is like, oh we need you know, 13 sequences this way. We have to segment them 4 different ways. We have to you know, do all this and this and this and this.

A lot of times not in every case, but a lot of times you have to bring it back to okay, what is like the essential stuff that we need you know what I mean. What can we really have to know that just absolutely nails it.

I just send out 2 proposals today. Actually, this morning before we got into call and both of them were very you know, they call and then they were like, oh I want you know, really complex like crazy funnel and I am like, look, you do not need that you know.

I would love for you to send me $20,000 now you know, but you do not need that yet. Let us first do kind of a phase 1 you know, for like half the price and let us nail that you know, nail the targeting, nail the message you know, the hook that we are getting the people and then once that happens, then we can branch out you know, then we can add in segmentation, then we can add in all this fancy and crazy stuff that will take it to the next level you know, but first, we have to get to A level first. We have to get actual sales first and then worry about the next level you know.

So with yours you know, you are really focusing on what audience and doing like one specific thing for that. So talk to us about you know why you chose to do that versus you know, versus something like you know, like why did you chose lawyers? Was it just you know, was it just like you know, pick of a hat you know, random thing or was it for very specific reason and the same thing goes for you know, why you chose to set up the funnel in such like kind of simplistic way you know, so talk to us a little about that.

Jan Roos: Got you, yes. I mean the thing is I wish I could say you know, I sat down 1 day and me and my whole plan is like, you know what, in 1 year I am going to have like a huge portfolio of lawyers is going to be great, but no in reality, it was kind of a situation where I knew that they were good from other you know, mentors of mine that said, hey look, lawyers are pretty good clients and the thing is that you know, from a fundamentals perspective, they are really good fit for Adwords because they have a very high cost per ticket which means they can justify a decent ad spent.

Most of the people are in that you know, last step ready to hire something so you can have the immediate results and I mean basically between those — and it is something that is very tangible. It is something that translates well into keywords.

With those 3 things it is like a really, really great fit and yeah. Today, we probably have you know, a couple of legacy clients that are not lawyers and you know, every once in a while we will take something that is not a lawyer, but it has got to satisfy all those conditions.

And that is the thing like you know, one of the recent success stories that we had was a private investigator. So you think about it, so this guy is making a couple grand every single time he has one of these you know, somebody hires him for whatever 24 to 36 hours and you know when you want a private investigator it is something that you know, private investigator New Jersey is something that is very, very fungible and yeah, you know, he has got people that have a need and so there is somebody that is generally ready to hire.

So with all those things in place, that is kind of how I was able to settle on that, and then also so the thing about like the developing of the niche it is like I am trying to think — Jeremy do you like, are you a mixed martial arts fan by any chance?

Jeremy Reeves: I have never done it, but I like it.

Jan Roos: Yeah, so we got UFC coming out tomorrow which is why it flash in my mind, so if you think about it, basically, you know, you have all these different things that you could possibly do in the world of market and we can compare to a fight right.

So you know, you could be doing striking, you could be grappling, you could be doing you know, wrestling, all these different things.

Generally, if you think about it like you know, most of the people that are — if you take someone who is considered a good boxer in the UFC and you put them up against somebody who is a boxer in a boxing organization, you know, 10/10 times, the boxer is going to just absolutely crush them because that is all they do. Every single time, when somebody is you know, when the MMA fighter is training wrestling, the boxer is boxing. When the MMA fighter is training jiu-jitsu, the boxer is boxing.

So you kind of just have this lead that just ends up getting compounded over time and then you get deeper and deeper and the thing is that when, especially what comes with that is the case studies and all these different results that you are start getting. So you know, 100% of the time we are working on this specific kind of funnel.

So look, even if somebody could say that they are better today and they are full service agency you know, it would not be the case a year from now.

So it is a lead and it is getting bigger every single day and we are learning things within this specific style that no one else knows about. We are developing all kinds of different tricks and that is kind of how you know, that is the benefit of working really deeply without a niche.

Another thing that I think is really important is that when you have to define niche, you sort of occupy somebody’s — like it is like a space that you occupy in someone’s mind.

So you know, this is — we did a lot of networking to get the business off the ground here in New York city. The thing is you know, there is a million agencies, so if you know, I go out and I meet somebody in the party and they are so yeah like you know, we are digital marketing agency, we are full service, we do this, we do that blah, blah.

I am not really going to think of that person if I ran into somebody who says they have a marketing challenge you know, somebody says, oh yeah, like you know, I have, oh God, I really need some SEO.

So you know, I know people that focus exclusively on SEO and that person occupies a space in my mind, it is very easy to say, oh, boom, click you know, (inaudible 20:07.2) we got to get you in touch with, and similarly, you know, when people hear what we do as a company, they encounter lawyer who says, oh man, you know ,it’s tough you know, I am just getting my practice started. I just do not know how I am going this phone to ring, oh no kidding, I just spoke to a company that does exactly that.

So the niche thing also helps in that way and you know, this could be social media, this could be just general PR stuff, it is like when you occupy a niche, it is credibility too. It is a foot-in-the-door, because it is like you know, sometimes I have been talking to different people, legal organization and stuff. I have a (inaudible 20:40.7) your time getting into that kind of situation because you know, we have already stated that we are committed to helping lawyers out.

And then yeah, just a lot of other things to, I mean when you are dealing with the kind of client, it is like you start to be really empathetic to their problems because you understand like all the things that it means to be a small or medium law practice you know, they chase a different set of challenges and it is again, it is like the same thing, you would not quite be learning as fast if you were working on legal and e-commerce and — so that is the sort of that stuff.

It is kind of funny too because the thing is that like you know, we have gone to the point of — I have made some mishires of people that were extremely qualified in Google Adwords like you know, we made a hire last year that we had to cut after a month or two, but he basically was you know, a top 1% Adwords person, him and his wife got invited to the Google campus for like celebration-type thing and the guy honestly you know, he was not outperforming people that we trained ourselves in house from complete scratch. And we thought that was the right thing to do, but like I said, the specialization starts taking a life of its own.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I love that you know. A lot of people they are like, oh — let us just say the fitness industry, because that is you know, there are a lot of different ways that you can go with that. Essentially, what I am saying is that there are a lot of different levels that you can take this to.

So I am working with the guy now, Carl, and I know he listens, so hi Carl, I know he listened to podcast.

He is not only is in the fitness industry, not only does he help people lose weight like 85 billion other people do. His specialty is essentially reinvigorating your liver to help you lose weight because he found out and there is a lot of research that kind of backs all this up.

He discovered that your liver is kind of like the you know, the machine that like, if it is slow, everything else is slow, but like once you clean out your liver, you know, it is the one thing that kind of makes everything else move you know what I mean. It is that center cog.

So if you are you know, a lot of weight issues come back to a slow liver like a clogged liver you know, from all you know, (inaudible 23:02.6) you breath and drink every day.

So his specialty is not only in helping people lose weight, but doing it — his mechanism for doing that is his specialty. So you know, using your liver to do that and of course he talks about other things you know, but that is like everything revolves around that core issue you know, and there is other people that do it.

I follow another health guy that his whole thing with losing weight and you know just being in shape is about not obsessing over it you know, and about kind of living in the moment and listening to your body you know, that is like his kind of specialty you know.

So there are a lot of different ways that you can specialize. Yours is a simple one, you know, you are specializing in certain industry, but if that industry is overcrowded like weight loss for example, you can then you know, not only are you specializing in a certain industry, but you are specializing in a certain mechanism in that industry to get that end result you know.

So I want everybody to think about that and think about what (inaudible 24:06.3) was just talking about the power of you know, having a specialty and then you know if you think that you know, kind of yours is good enough you know, see if you can take it another level deep you know, is there is something — even if you specialize in certain industry or certain you know, result or way of doing it or whatever, look and see if there is a certain like mechanism for actually doing that which can help you specialize even further you know what I mean.

Even like Ryan Laveck with you know, doing sales funnels you know, his whole — his mechanism for building sales funnel is a survey you know what I mean. So there are a lot of different ways of looking that you know.

So with that said you know, I think we cover a lot. I even kind of get refreshed on a couple things that I have forgotten about over the years you know, so it was super helpful I think everybody is going to get a ton out of this interview.

So before we head off you know, tell everybody — well first of all, is there anything that I did not ask that you know you would get off the call and say, shit, you know, I wish Jeremy asked me that because it can help everybody you know, is there any kind of one big key insight that everybody should take away?

Jan Roos: Okay, I got something that was kind of coming up really. So you know, another thing is that you know, when we were talking about simple funnels and this is kind of like saying with your proposal. One of the things that is really important especially for the people out there that are doing marketing and consulting of any type really is that sometimes a client will want something extremely complex, but it is your job as the consultant, to have the discipline to say, look you know, we have something that is more simple that can sometimes be more effective than something complex and the thing is that it is very tough to make that decision for yourself especially when you are starting out.

So you can actually be doing a lot of benefits to a client by doing that. So I think we are definitely in line on that, but that is the thing. It is not always — it is not always the most fancy stuff that works.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I just had a — I had another client and I do that all the time. I have so many people who are like, oh my God, you actually just told me to give you less money you know, but it is refreshing you know, for clients you know.

I actually just — I just did a podcast, I forgot if it is live or not, in fact, I think it is actually going live today as we recording this, but you know, I was talking about how — I actually had a client that they were on (inaudible 26:33.3) for $2000 a month and just the way that things changed it was not in their best interest to keep paying that you know, actually kind of you know, reanalyzing our working range you know, and I am the one that brought it up. It was not them that brought it up. It was me that brought it up and you know, it just comes back to you know, putting your clients first you know what I mean.

It seems it hard to do, I mean it really is like when you are saying, when somebody is paying you money and you are like, look pay me less you know like, it is not an easy thing to do you know what I mean, but you have to, you know what I mean. You have to be able to do that if you are going to be in this long term you know what I mean, because that is what create like you know even the you know, I have several clients that I have done that for and we got the result and they were like, oh my God, this is the best thing ever. I am telling everybody I know about you because you know, I never would ever expected for somebody to actually you know, tell me to pay them less money you know and not only that you do that, but now we are actually getting you know really good results from and we spent half of what we thought we are going to you know what I mean and it is just you know, it is just better you know, plus you just (inaudible 27:44.6) it is so much better for your peace of mind as well you know and I am huge on that you know, do not build a business just for money like do it you know for your own happiness as well you know what I mean.

Yes, I think that is you know, I think that is a big point and that does not mean that you know, you drop all of your fees, no not at all.

When it makes sense you take them to the highest you know, the highest package or whatever that you have, but whatever makes sense is what you have to give them whether that is $5,000 package or $50,000 package you know.

For one example like if someone came to me and they were you know, a $10M company, I am not going to say, oh, you know, we are just going to start super small for you know, like a couple of grand or whatever, unless they were like, hey, let us do like a test or whatever, then that is fine and I do that all the time you know, that is kind of normal, but you know, if they were like, look, you know we have this funnel and we want to take it to the next level and blah, blah you know, we want to add segmentation, we have to redo the sales letter all that kind of thing then they are in their best interest would be doing that you know.

It would not be doing small little thing you know what I mean. So it really just comes down to looking at your clients or your customers if you do not have clients even if you are selling a product.

Looking at your business in a way that is you know, taking their interest first you know, your mind every decision you make should always be wrapped around to your you know, what is best for your customer or your client because yeah, you are going to lose money in the short term, that is a given, but you make it off in a long term, you know what I mean. Not only in terms of monetary, but also you know, like I said, like just in your own peace of mind you know. So yeah, I love that, I fully agree on that.

Yes, so before we kick it off here, tell everybody you know, where they can find out about you and you know how they can get in touch.

Jan Roos: Okay, got you. So our website is over at Expertengines.co it is very legal focused, do you imagine from the (inaudible 29:47.2) conversation, but yeah, if anyone ever wants to take a look and see whether Adwords, lead gen and the style that we do is something that is a good fit honestly probably not even for hiring us just for your own knowledge, we are going to set up a little worksheet over at Expertengines.co/jeremy, so you can just send your email and we will send you the PDF for that.

Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good. Yeah, because I mean honestly, it is not you know, all traffic sources are not right for the you know, for everybody.

I just talked to somebody yesterday, who you know, they have an awesome product and all that and — but Adwords just would not be their right fit for them. I think one of my kids is coming in the room now let us see.

Jan Roos: I actually forgot a key part of my story. One of the reasons that I was so focused on Adwords is that we actually got completely (inaudible 30:42.8) by an Adwords consultant who did not have the integrity to say that the kind of product we were selling was not a good fit for Adwords, so that was yeah, man, I should said that way early, anyway.

Jeremy Reeves: No, I mean it is super important you know. Yes everybody go to Expertengines.co or if you want to get the little worksheet that he put together Expertengines.co/jeremy and before we hop off here, I am going to have Logan.

Logan is sitting on my lap, he is my 3-year-old. So Logan, can you say Hi. Say hi to everybody. Go ahead. No okay, alright, never mind. I thought we are going to have a little special guest here, but apparently not.

Jan Roos: Well, thanks for everything Jeremy. It is awesome and I hope you guys can get some good (inaudible 31:32.2) today.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah right, I do not know, I probably get sunburned because I have not been out in the sun all summer. At least my chest and stomach and back you know, I have been wearing shorts (inaudible 31:43.0) something like that, but yeah, anyway, everybody go to Expertengines.co or Expertengines.co/jeremy to get the worksheet and see if Adwords is right for you and yeah, I hope you have a good day and thanks again for coming on, it was awesome.

Jan Roos: My pleasure Jeremy. Thanks again.

Jeremy Reeves: Alright, I will talk to you soon.

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