Justin Christianson on Optimizing Your Conversions for Maximum ROI

In this episode we sit down with Justin Christianson to discuss what’s working and what’s not working in CRO (conversion rate optimization) these days. CRO is crucial to maximizing your revenue throughout your sales funnel so pay close attention! We’ll help you save time by only focusing on tests that matter, while maximizing your ROI. Enjoy!

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Jeremy Reeves: Hey what is going on guys and girls, this is Jeremy Reeves with another episode of the sale funnel mastery podcast and today I have on the line, Justin Christianson and Justin is the bestselling author of Conversion Fanatic, How To Double Your Customers, Sales and Profits with A/B testing and is — he has been in the industry for 14 years. We actually talked a couple of years ago and now we are getting back in touch and I already know — I have seen a couple of the things that he has done. He is a wizard with CRO which is conversion rate optimization and you can find him at Conversionfanatics.com and I am going to bring him on with him to give you a little bit more detail description of who he is and kind of who he helps and what he does and all that kind of stuff.

So Justin, welcome.

Justin Christianson: Thanks Jeremy for having me, glad to be here.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So you know, I just did a quick little brief intro just so they have you know, kind of a quick little background of you, but go into you know, tell us a little bit about what you do and who you are helping and that kind of thing.

Justin Christianson: Well, this is my 14th year in digital marketing. So I have been around the block a couple of times. We basically started our company, Conversion Fanatics, just actually a couple short years ago after my business partner and I were in private consulting, doing basically the same thing you know, it just came at demand you know. A lot of companies coming to us, they know they should split testing they are just not sure how to go about it or maybe they are seeing lackluster results with their current optimization effort.

So we stepped in and basically helped them with their split testing and optimization and provide the bandwidth need from the frontend development standpoint, from the design, the implementation, the advisement of the reporting, so we kind of take over the majority of the heavy lifting to help companies achieve those results faster and test a lot faster than they would ultimately not be able to do on their own.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, sure, okay. So when you are working with people, is there certain — I am always interested in the process that people go through, because you know, you get really good results for people and you know, for me, like I know that once we — in our company, once we started getting systems in place, you know, and actual process rather than just like, okay, let us — you know, here is the project, alright, let us start working on it.

You know, when we actually had like an actual process in place our results went way up you know.

So what is you process. Somebody comes to you and you know, they hire you, you know, so day 1 like what is the — what is the cycle looked like and the process that you go through with people and you know, I am kind of saying this, try to relate to someone who is going to be doing conversion optimization, so like, what do they have to do rather — because a lot of people I know, it is like okay, you know, whatever a sales letter, we have a sales funnel in place, alright, let us start testing, alright, well let us test this color of a button you know.

Take us through the process that you should go through and what you do for your clients that helps you, helps you get more winners you know, because one of the big problems with conversion rate optimization is that when people start doing it, they do not get good results because they are kind of just throwing things against the wall you know, and they have no you know, no insight into like what they should be testing. They are kind of just like, oh, yeah, let us test this headline like with no reason for testing it you know what I mean.

So walk us through that process.

Justin Christianson: Okay, so the first thing you want to really understand is, what is the outcome you want out of an optimization plan, I mean what are your biggest areas that you need to focus on like you said, most people just go at it, make a list of things, it is like, Oh, a green button is going to convert better than an orange one, and they do not really pay attention to what they are actually in testing to accomplish.

It is probably the biggest thing, that is where we help our customers identify, it is like, what are your big objectives, what are your goals for the next 12 months or for the next 24 months and then understand kind of where they are falling short.

So if you analyze your own existing business from that standpoint to is you are going to understand a lot of areas that need improvement rather than just testing some random things.

So from there, we analyze existing conversion rates. We will look at analytics. We will look at heat maps, click maps. We will try to figure out where the visitors are going and then ultimately find out where they are falling off in the process.

So you might have 4 upsells in a chain on your sales funnel and you see that, oh, well, I am getting decent people signing up on the front end, but my average order value is kind of lacking.

So you would go back and find which of the areas that you need the biggest area of improvement, it might be upsell 2, it might be upsell 3, heck, it might even be the first offer.

So from there, we gather all of that information. We do market analysis and competitive analysis too.

So we will go out there and look and see where other people are spending money and figure out what pages they are sending their traffic to what you know, what kind of offers they are presenting to help us formulate what we call a test-type offices.

And from there, we create the test-type offices and that is, okay, what are the biggest areas of leverage that we need to focus on first and what do we feel will be the biggest — have the biggest impact if we start testing immediately and we are coming up with the ideas not just a list of you know, we are going to test headline first, then we are going to test the button and then we are going to test the call to action and then we are going to add some testimonials. It never works out that way.

So we always want to find the biggest leverage points first and then decide, okay, what do we want to test first. What do we think is going to have the most impact and what is our desired outcome from this test. What will make that a winner.

And then from there we just start testing. I mean, that is our basic process, but we do not like I said, we do not just make a huge list of things to test even though I can go on anybody’s site and say, okay, you need to test these 50 things.

We just tried to learn from every single test that we conduct. So you let the data be the guide and then kind of back that up with some best practices. It could come down to that you simply need to test a button color first. Maybe you do not have enough contrast in your buttons or maybe you need to add some additional calls to action to your process.

So it can come down to something as simple as that, but often times it is just, you got to let the data do the talking.

Jeremy Reeves: Okay, that makes sense. And do you, you know, when people first come to you and you are always, and you are looking for that first test to start you know, there is nothing to place, you just started the project. Do you look for — because there is kind of two ways that you can go about it. You can look and say, okay, we are going to start with this big you know, overhaul and see you know, that helps or you can say, alright, well I see let us just say, 3 different areas that are like almost guarantee of the quick wins you know.

For example, if they have like the call to action section is just say yellow and then the call action button is also like just a slightly different shade of yellow you know, that is like an easy win you know what I mean.

Now are you going to double conversions, probably not, but it is easy win.

So what do you look — do you look in terms of getting a couple of quick wins first to kind of generate some momentum, you know, it is kind of a like if you are losing weight, you want to lose a couple of pounds really fast, like to gain some confidence and just getting some momentum or do you look at trying to get a big win right up front.

Justin Christianson: I mean it is usually a case by case basis, but if there is some things that are just blatantly obvious like you said, you know, the yellow one yellow. We are going to test that right out to get those wins and sometimes that little change can have a huge impact.

I remember one test we ran where we change the button color to add the contrast. It was a button color test and it increased their actual pre-account signups for this company by like 154%.

It was something just ridiculous, but they had a very simplistic page, but we tried to find the biggest areas of leverage first. If we can get those quick ones of the way and we can learn something from that test then we will go out and do it.

So I always say, you have to learn something from every single test whether be a winner or a loser. The loser sometimes tell us more about the visitors than the winners do.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. You know, and go a little deeper on that because I think that is the whole learning aspect of this, that is something that most people glaze over. They kind of just want to — they kind of, you know, it is like, oh, let us test the price, let us test a different type of offer or bonus or whatever it is. I mean, there is a billion things you test, but they do not really look for okay, well, this one or this lost and what is that teach us. What can we use to then increase our results in the future.

So go a little bit deeper on the whole aspect of you know, finding learnings from you know, doing your testing.

Justin Christianson: Yeah, so you just want to let the visitors be the guide. So the whole goal when you are thinking about optimization is what can you do to remove the most amount of friction from your process to get your visitors from initial click to the end goal.

So you have to learn something, your visitors are going to tell you what they like and what they dislike more than anything else. So you can assume all day long that something is going to work better but often times, you are going to be proven wrong.

So when we go into a testing scenario, we always want to figure out something about the visitor. So I was thinking about it in terms of people because that is (inaudible 12:09.0) dealing with it at the end of the day is people.

It is what makes them tick and what makes them move through the process. What are they interacting with the most on the page. What are they not liking. An example is we ran a test or look at some data for an e-commerce store recently that they are mobile checkouts or just blocking for better term.

So we found out that there was too many clicks involved I mean, our today’s mobile world were so easy, just flip your thumb and you scroll down to the bottom of the page.

So they were making people click to choose the size, click choose the color, choose all of the stuff and then it would expand on your mobile phone as you kind of move through the process.

That adds friction. Anytime you can add a click to something, that is a friction point. So we took it upon ourselves and we expanded all of those options and it initially showed like some massive improvement and then as the test went on we gather more information and more data it fell off and then it end up losing by like 4%, 5%, or 6% something like that at the end of the day but instead about saying, oh, you know, that did not work, let us move on to something else, we said, we are on to something because it showed initial results that were extremely positive, I mean it was 40%+ improvement initially and it is (inaudible 13:33.9) there for quite a while.

So we went back and we revised the test. So we expanded some of the options. We rearranged things just a little bit to make it a bit more appealing and ended up with like a 36% winner out of the deal just because we were looking at the information as a whole not necessarily just looking at oh that was loser, let us move on to, no, we just need to test the button color.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, got you, okay. Is there any, you know, when you are doing test, is there any certain you know, because there is always that fine line between accuracy with you know, like getting result like accuracy and then also speed because you know, you can get, you can sit there and waste you know 2 years getting you know, ridiculous amount of accuracy, but you know, there is also the you know speed involved with that and how many text you can do and all that.

So do you have any like kind of base numbers I know like you know, 95% is kind of like a general rule of thumb you know or does it differ between businesses you know, how do you look at that because I am sure your clients even you know, some of them have really high volume so you can get extremely statistically relevant you know information results and all that kind of stuff.

So talk us a little bit about you know for the average person doing this, is there kind of a rule of thumb in terms of how many results they should have, how many conversions they should have before they consider a test you know resolved where they can move on to the next one or how does that look.

Justin Christianson: Well, I mean you can run test. We have had test run where there is you know, we ran 200,000 visitors through a test and still not achieved significance.

So that is kind of a number we used, but we kind of based it on the level of conversions. Obviously, you need a large enough sample size. So I say run a test for a minimum of a week because you need enough days in there because the traffic on weekends is going to convert different than the traffic on Mondays or Tuesdays, so you need a big enough sample size over a long enough period of time getting all the days of the week in there and then we look at it from the point of conversions, so we look at a minimum of 25 conversions per variation before we start actually looking and paying more close attention to the actual data.

So we have to look at it from that standpoint because if you have just a handful of conversions on each variation 1 conversion can swing the test dramatically one way or another. So you have to have enough sample size I say usually, 1000 unique visitors per variation, run it for more than a week and then if you have enough conversions because that is the main catalyst at the end of the day is how many people are actually converting. It does not matter, I can send a bunch of junk traffic to a site and get a bunch of traffic but it means nothing.

So we look at it from that standpoint and if it is showing promise one way or the other you can usually tell by about 25 conversions or more per variation.

Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you. Yeah, and what you are saying there is a lot — most people do you know like an A/B split test it is this version against this version, but you can also do this versus this versus this versus you know, you could have more than one versions that is what Justin talking about with that just in case anybody was confused on that.

Now is there any — I am trying to think of a ways to word this, when you are looking at all of the different you know parts of the funnel that you can test you know, is there anything that you found and maybe you can even categorize this by like industry if you know, whatever — if it helps.

Is there any part of the sales funnel that you found that you can typically find increases (inaudible 17:37.9) easier. So just for example, maybe the lead generation part, the opt in part or the where you are actually making the first sale or the checkout process or after the sale you know, is there anything, anyone — let us just keep it to those 4 areas just to make it simple. Is there any one of those 4 areas that you found most people are doing wrong the most and it is like an easy win you know, within that area.

Justin Christianson: It is almost always the checkout process.

Jeremy Reeves: I thought so, okay, yeah, so talk to us about that.

Justin Christianson: So many people work so hard on their sales message. It work on the great video on their opt in page and they work on this beautiful landing page and trying to get people to subscribe for their free report for lack of you know, just something (inaudible 18:28.0) we work in all sorts of industries. We have software as a service you know. Companies doing 50 plus million dollars in revenue, it is still the same thing. It is all traffic and conversions at the end of the day, it is just a different market, but the biggest thing is the checkout. They spent so much time on their sales message and their process and selling people on exactly how great their product is and all the benefits they are going to get from it. Then they push them to this checkout page that is very vanilla, it is very boring and it does not carry over the sales message almost ever. I mean, there are so many companies that says, okay, now enter your check or your credit information. Here is your order total and let us go.

The biggest area of improvement there even it could be e-commerce, it could be somebody selling information products, it could be you know a supplement company and it does not matter.

Once you get them there you got to remember to continually sell them on why they need to push that checkout button.

You put all these effort in to getting them to the checkout page and then you give up on selling.

So carry over your benefits. Carry over your proof elements. Carry over how simple your process is. Walk them through that exact process on exactly what they need to do next. Emphasize that is a 100% secure and give them all the warm and fuzzy feelings they need to push then fill out that form and get started with the next step.

Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you. Do you do anything — what are some of the kind of best practices for you know, like what are a lot of people missing on their checkout pages you know, besides kind of restating all the benefits and stuff like that. What about things like you know, trust deals you know, that kind of thing or design even you know, something like that.

Justin Christianson: Well, a couple of things I look at is what is the visible about (inaudible 20:24.8) page.

When you first land on the page, do you see the checkout button. You know, they could have a bunch of additional white space in there. Some of the best practices that I have is make it just simple as possible. Don’t have you know, here is your billing information and then have it expanded so they have to fill out the shipping information to. Let them choose if they need to ship it to a different address you know, to provide more you know, less clutter on the page.

A couple of the few other best practices are, you mentioned, you know, carrying over the benefits, using those benefit-driven bullet points to highlight your guarantee again you know, if you do not have something just say satisfaction guaranteed. If you do not offer you know, a set refund period. And then progress bars, that is another big one, is people do not really highlight how easy it is and progress bars allow you to do that. So I say, do not add more than 4 steps in your process to narrow it down but show them.

Okay, you are on this step, right now, you have only got 1 more step to go and you are done and we are out of here and I am going to be shipping your product out to you or you going to get access to the product.

Another good trick that I have seen specifically on desktop which is coming a little less effective as more mobile users come on, but have a video on your checkout page that just have the face of your company maybe the CEO of the company and just say hey you know, we are real company, just a video you know, we have — we have sold this many products and this you know, many countries and we have you know, fabulous support team you can contact them here. Here is our guarantee for the product just really adding that personal touch in that social element that proof element into the mix and then just tell them all you got to do is we are just 1 more step away you just got to fill out this 100% secure order form on the page and click that continue button and it kind of gives them additional call to action but says that, hey, we really stand behind this product and I think you are going to love it for this reason.

Jeremy Reeves: I love that. That is — and you rarely ever see that you know. I cannot even remember the last time I saw a video. I do not even have on my own. I am going to put that on my list for next week, probably, I am going to do that.

It is funny because I knew that, I just did not do it but yeah, I mean, you never ever even see that, but you know, I was kind of — as you were explaining it, I was kind of picturing it in my head. I mean it makes tons of sense because you are you know, when they are at the checkout page that is like their moment of you know, the maximum friction you know, they kind of nervous they are like, oh my God, you know, what if they rip me off. What if it is not for me and they would not give me a refund you know. These are all the things going through people’s heads and if you are just on there and you are like, hey, look you know, very just down to earth you kind of you know, do everything that the words and the order (inaudible 23:30.8) should do your restate the guarantee. You restate the benefits. You reassure them of the purchase that is going to be good for them you know. Reassure them that what they are about to buy is going to help solve their problem you know, all that stuff and you just put it in to whatever 30 seconds or 60 seconds video.

I can see that, that is actually going to be my next step for my side business, I will let you know how it goes.

Justin Christianson: Yeah, for sure, let me know. It just handles all of the objections upfront and the more you can do that and another thing is I mean, people do not read on the internet. Even though there are studies that have shown long form you know sales messages and stuff like that do outperform in a lot of cases, but most of the time people do not — still do not read them. You know, they (inaudible 24:16.2).

So breaking thing down into bite size (inaudible 24:20.0) on your checkout page they you know, we have a 60 day guarantee and if you are not 100% satisfied and you list all of that stuff out it is just adding friction to it.

Throwing an icon up there that says 60 day unconditional money back guarantee. You know, just making it easy and not distracting to the end goal.

Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you. Yeah, you know what, one of the — I think one of the reasons and you can correct me if I am wrong. One of the reasons that I think having all these stuff on your checkout page works is because people normally do not read every single word on your page.

So they might not even know that you have a guarantee you know, and before they get there or they might not even know you know exactly what the benefits are that they are even you know buying and they are hitting your checkout page.

A lot of times, depending on how you have your price, I mean this is going to vary, but depending on like where your price is on your sales page and all that kind of stuff they might just be clicking the first buy button that they could see just to find out the price you know. A lot of people would do that and so if you only have you know, hey our product X is you know, $197 and they are going to be, oh it is too much, and just click off versus if you have like, here is why $197 is nothing you know what I mean, you are going to whatever if it is an ROI you know, you are guaranteed to make 10 times or whatever it is then they are like, oh, okay, you know, that sounds better, but yeah, I love that. I love that.

So when you are looking at that so you know, the checkout page is one definitely huge leverage point because it gets a lot of people and you know the abandonment rate on checkout pages are huge I mean I have seen 60%, 70%, and 80% with that.

So if you can get it from 80 to let us just say 60 you know, that is whatever like a 25% increase you know in your sales which is huge you know.

So one of the things that you do is you look for leverage points you know, when you are looking at people’s businesses you are looking at what you can help increase the conversions on. You look for the leverage point. So you are looking at just for example maybe let us just go back to button color just for a simple example. Maybe all of their button colors are wrong so instead of just doing 1 test and let us just say they have a couple products and each one is you know, worth 20% of the revenue, I mean it never works out like that, but just for you know, simplicity sake.

So each product is worth 20% of the revenue, there are 5 products and you get a 10% conversion on 1 of them. Well that is only like a 2% total revenue increase whereas if you are looking at something that increases it site wide you know, you can get you know, a 10% increase overall rather than 2%.

So you know, what kind of leverage points do you look for. Do you look for things like that. Is it different leverage points like things like you know, price or something like that or you know, how do you look for leverage points when you are working with people.

Justin Christianson: I will let the visitors be the guide. That is the biggest thing is. I always look at it from the standpoint like I mentioned earlier of friction. Is you might have 5 steps in your process you know, add the product to cart and then it pops up like e-commerce store for example. You are browsing, you go to the category page. You find the product you want. You view the product page. You see everything great about it and you add it to cart and then you are stuck on that page because you got the little icon in the upper end right side that shows (inaudible 27:49.7) all of the sudden. That is a friction point.

Instead, you got to push people into that next step instead of you know, just leading them down that path and again, it is just grabbing them, holding them by the hand, leading them down the path of least resistance to the end goal. And that is the areas of leverage we are looking at.

Another example could be that you have multiple calls to action. Maybe you have got a page for a trial offer for a software as a service but you are also highlighting it is like sign up for a demo or you know download my latest white paper. Sign up for this webinar and you are just distracting people from what it is you want them to ultimately do in the end and that is to sign up for a free trial.

Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you. And when you are looking at the you know, going back to essentially telling you know, the prospect or the customer you know what they want, how do you find out like do you do surveys, do you do — and if so, you know what kind of surveys do you do, do you do to the list, exit pop surveys or pay to surveys like on Facebook or you know, how do you — how do you go about your kind of research process to understanding the customer. What they want, their frustrations all that kind of thing.

Justin Christianson: Yeah, it comes down to looking I mean heat maps, click maps, or great tools. You can find out that you have a video on your page and nobody is clicking on it to watch it. So it becomes absolutely useless at that point. You might think it is improving your conversions but nobody is clicking on it to watch it so it is not doing you any good.

You know, and then surveys are another great example. You could do exit surveys just to gather some extra intel there. I always tell people that if you can survey your customers that is a great way to do it because one, a lot of people do not like it because they do not want to necessarily hear the bad stuff tht might come out of it, but it is crucial information and it help some a couple different levels. It tells you how great you are doing you know in what areas people like the most and you are going to find some you know similarities in all of the answers from that, but it also allows people that maybe unhappy customer a place to vent and hear you and be heard before they turn to social medial you know, bad mouth your product.

So it allows a couple different factors but it allows you what — it tells you what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong and sometimes that is the best feedback that we can use, it is like, oh, we found out that this product you know, this check out process was painful and there has been a couple of companies where I have ordered from recently getting ready for a trade show in May and I was like, I emailed them and I am like, holy smokes, guys, your checkout process is painful and I am technically savvy.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it is funny how many people it is like, it is actually challenging to give them money you know.

Justin Christianson: Yeah. Another example there is user testing.

Jeremy Reeves: Oh, that is a good one, yeah. Talk to us about that one.

Justin Christianson: So there is solutions out there like usertesting.com that will put a bunch of users through your site. It kind of find friction point. It is not always your ideal target market, but it uncovers a lot of areas for improvement and I also kind of take this spot too where you can show your website to somebody that may not be your ideal customer and show it to him for 5 seconds and then turn off the monitor and then ask him some questions about how well your site. What your site is about. So that will help provide some necessary feedback so you can change because we have very short attention spans in today’s digital world and making sure you are relevant, you are capturing attention to somebody that might not necessarily even buy your product and they can understand it, chances are you are visitors will better understand it if you fix it.

Jeremy Reeves: Nice, yeah, I love it. So what kind of tools do you use you know, I know there is a million different you know, different types of split testing tools and analytics and metrics I mean all that kind of stuff, but you know, tell us some of your favorites.

Justin Christianson: Some of our favorites mixpanel has been really good. For some tracking, we use improvely as well. Our go to testing platform is optimizely. We are certified partners with them after test in pretty much every tool over the years. Then we used crazyegg and hotjar are 2 examples for heat map and click map software and just good old google analytics if set up properly is a very effective tool and you cannot beat the price.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, right. It cannot be free. Yeah, and you know what, so 2 quick things here. One, another recommendation, I just found out mousestats. I just started using — I found them with one of my latest clients maybe a couple of weeks ago and I really like that one, that is a good one and then with analytics, I wanted to just kind of reiterate that one because almost nobody has that set up correctly and all you have to do and you know, I understand because when you are looking at it, it is like, oh my God, this is so complex, this is you know, it is hard to set up, you have to do all the stuff, it is like, it is very technical all that kind of stuff, but you can go and just find somebody who specializes in that and pay under $500 and have it completely set up so it is like totally you know, just amazing and you can have every possible stat you will ever need you know, in your business I mean it is not that expensive to get somebody to professionally come in there and set everything up for you, you know what I mean. I do not have the exact price but you know, but it is going to depend on who you hire obviously, but you know, a couple $100 even say $100,000 I mean it is so worth it you know what I mean.

Justin Christianson: Absolutely.

Jeremy Reeves: And they are good I mean because you can you know, if you really dig in, I mean, there is so much data that they give you. You could find out you know the conversion rates from mobile versus desktop versus tablet, country you know, I mean time of day, language, I mean it is like, it is amazing what you can you know, what pages they — like what page — I have it set up for one of my side businesses that we know what blog post pages get the most opt ins and then you know what email campaigns or what individual emails within the email campaigns send the most traffic to the sales page and convert the highest. I mean, it is so easy to you know to win when you have that information.

Justin Christianson: Yeah, it is and that is the sad thing is I heard a stat a while I go and I think I quote it in my book is that 97% of companies collect data on their visitors in some fashion but less than 30% actually use it for anything and that is pretty sad. I mean, your visitors are your biggest catalyst and if you are not paying attention to what they are telling you, you are leaving a truck load of money on the table.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Alright, well, hey you know, you gave a ton of you know, a ton of value bonds here. I am very excited about this. I think it is — I feel like a lot of people want to split test. A lot of people know they should be split testing but most people do not you know what I mean, and I think you know, you might have a little bit more insight than me. I have not work in CRO world in a couple of years now, but I think most of it comes down to the fact that it perceived to be complex you know what I mean. It has perceived to be a lot of work you know, so I would just recommend everybody to just you know, get Justin’s book and you know I will tell you his website on where to get in and all that stuff in a minute, but just start split testing you know. At least, if you have the traffic I always tell people to get like a good baseline you know, there is no need to split test if you are getting like you know 1 sale a day because the test is going to take forever you know, just spend your time getting more sale first so you can do faster test, but you know if you are in the place where you know, where you should be split testing, you are getting you know at least a couple of sales a day, you are getting opt ins, you are getting you know, enough date where you cannot test and it is not taking a year to get a result then you definitely going to get into this because I have seen some huge, huge wins with my own businesses, my clients. I have seen other people (inaudible 36:44.1) it is incredible, and you just learned so much about your customers in the, you know, in the process and then it is kind of like the instead of the downward spiral it is the exact opposite you know, like every time you do a test and even if it wins or not you learn something and then you use that learning to then do better marketing and then you do better marketing, you get more sales you know, the whole process kind of repeats itself you know.

So with that said, you know, do you have anything, is there anything that I missed that you know, if you were trying to — if this were like you know, conversion rate optimization master class and you needed people to know before they get off the call. Is there anything that I missed. Any kind of question that I did not ask or any topic that we did not cover that you think people should know about before they start getting into this world.

Justin Christianson: No, I guess the final thing is just do not get discouraged by the losing, the losers — that is the biggest thing is. The common problem we see is people give up on testing too soon and they do not make it a part of their business and it should be a part of your company DNA just as much as getting traffic and setting up your ad sets in facebook campaign.

You should have testing as part of that process too and do not just — because you are not getting winner straight out of the gate, do not worry because for every winner it makes up for any losers.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think a lot of people, a lot of people miss that you know, the losers you might only have you know, 2 or 3 weeks with kind of lower matrix but then you got a winner and you have that for life you know, so it totally, totally makes up for it.

Justin Christianson: And that is — the thing is, we are very competitive market in pretty much every market thanks to the internet, so if you are not testing your competition is and they are going to quickly swallow you up because they can spend more money on traffic. They can pay more to acquire customers and leads and if you are not testing, your competition is going to you know, take a bigger cut of the market share because you are not constantly evolving your marketing message through optimization and what worked 6 months ago is not necessarily going to work today. What it did not work 6 months ago might work today.

So you have to constantly be changing, evolving, revising old test and just strive each day to be better than you were yesterday and optimization allows you to do that.

Jeremy Reeves: Definitely, yeah. Well, hey man, I really enjoyed it. You are a smart man my man. So hey, you know, if anybody wants to get in touch with you, either to get your book or to have you guys you know, help them with their split testing or where can they find out more about you.

Justin Christianson: Conversionfanatics.com there is a link on there to get the book. You can buy it directly on Amazon and then you can find me directly on all social platforms and stuff like going to clyxo.com/justinchristianson.

Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good, and as usual, all those links will be in the show notes so do not even bother you know typing them in just go and click on the link, you will go right there from the show notes. It will be a lot faster and easier for you.

I really appreciate you coming on. It was a blast. I hope everybody got a lot out of this and you know, if you are interested in split testing, I highly recommend reaching out to Justin either to get his book or you know and get on his list and see what he is doing or get in touch to you know, to possibly work with them or you know whatever kind of suits you best, and yeah, I mean you know, the biggest thing is just go out and do it, try it, you know, you are going to increase your results and then you know, like you said, you know, you increase it and then you increase the revenue coming in and then it allows you to make more sales and you get to do test faster and it is just you know, it is a cool you know good increase cycle.

Justin Christianson: Yeah, it is all about compounding conversion increases.

Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, exactly. It was a pleasure. We will talk to you soon.

Justin Christianson: Alright, thanks Jeremy, I appreciate it.

About the Author Jeremy Reeves

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